State of the System + Call for Feedback: WtA

[Jacqui]

I should probably start this off by saying between work and study (which I for some reason thought was a fabulous idea and rather constantly want to run screaming into the horizon about) I don't have a ton of free time atm, but - ! I am definitely interested in trying to pick activity back up in the WtA system at some point, depending on what shakes loose from talking and ideas, etc.

So, to take prompts from others, what I do/have enjoyed:

- SLs!: They don't necessarily have to be huge, or always with the violence but I have always found that a good 'long or short game' SL propels and inspires great RP. The characters feel a stronger urgency about why they're there, and so on.
- Garou Politics and Moots: I'm a bit of a sucker for the political, inter-tribal tensions and other jostling for position that often takes place in the WtA system (probably all that time playing a Half Moon, tbh). I also think the moots (ST run or just, free formed) are always a great way to find reasons to interact with different characters, realize tensions, start connections for packs, etc
- Packs (!): This might be another small thing but I think one of the things that can really make WtA fun is all the dynamic, different packs that roam around and the tensions (and friendships) that can spring up as a result, NPC or PC, I think they've always given a great flavor that I enjoyed in the past

Those are just a couple off the top of my head but I might revise and add a few more later as I think of 'em, too.

[Kenna]

Well I sure don't have a lot of time on my hands, but I heard 'W:tA' from across the meatspace and had to come poke in.

W:tA has always been my wheelhouse. It's my favorite system, hands down, and probably always will be. If something were to get jumpstarted, I may try to throw a character in and at least be an occasional participant when I can manage it (though, honestly, most of my play will ultimately have to be forums or email based, since it's rough to find time to sit down for more than an hour at a time with both hands free, y'know?)

That said...

What I've Enjoyed:

• Diverse demographics
  
• Excitement! Drama! Sexiness! Political Intrigue! Horror and terror!
  
• A strong storyline to follow (that is to say, a driving goal as oposed to a bunch of small disjointed stories that don't build to a greater point)
  
• Flexibility and freedom for characters to do what they would be inclined to do
  

What I've Disliked:

• Stagnancy
  
• Having your character stopped from taking an action they otherwise would without in character motivation/prevention for it
  
• A lack of weight and danger-- the game's not fun if everything happening is just relationship building and unrelated to the supernatural
  

I don't like giving critiques about a game or a system when I don't have the time or energy or 'oomph' to craft and present an overarching storyline myself, but without honesty we don't get anywhere right?

I'd love to play again, though, regardless. I get nostalgic for the fuzz sometimes.

[Damon]

OH. One more thing I lovelovelove:

Shared living quarters. Boardinghouses. Dorms.

And yes, I know that's a super-contentious point where some people absolutely hate the idea because they think it's dangerous IC, but ... seriously, there is no better way to encourage open drop-in scene-age than to have the built-in reason of "because I live there."

[kai]

I'm going to chime in and answer my own questions, but I want to keep hearing from anyone who has thoughts on it. I'm not looking to get (or give) a 'final word' on this. I am also going to copy liberally from my neighbors:


Things I have liked:
- Breathing room. Time and space to explore character interaction and development.
- OOC flexibility, spontaneity, and collaboration (especially when characters are being rigid and not cooperating with each other).
- Group scenes with no plan or specific purpose; people drop in and out and we just see what happens.
- Group scenes where we know exactly what we're there for and it still goes haywire.
- Sexy angsty drama ZOMG.
- Packs, and inter-pack conflict (and intra-pack conflict).
- Interaction with the spirit world and spirits and all manner of weird things. Like time travel.
- An overarching goal/purpose that drags characters together because the Wyrm is a thing and survival is sort of important. Go team yeah!
- Garou and Kin interactions.
- I hadn't thought about it til other people in this thread mentioned it, but the sense of urgency. ACTUAL DANGER.
- Shared living quarters open to both Kin and Garou where you don't have NPC sept officials quashing anything interesting that might happen.
- I'm really glad Kenna pointed out diversity in the demographics. I tell people to play what they want, but if there are already 7 Theurges...try something new.
- Regular one-shots as well as shorter storyline arcs that stimulate character interaction/development.
- Player investment and direction in making stuff happen. Dovetailing there: admin/player collaboration! This is huge to me.
- Rage.
- Conflict.
- Risk-taking.
- Spooky stories to tell in the dark.
- Gratitude between players because even if we're not STing, we're giving up our off time to entertain each other and that's worth appreciating vocally.
- Proactively taking responsibility for creating and sharing the RP you enjoy.

Things I have not liked:
- Constant, heavy, system-wise SLs. I disengage when it feels like the only way to stay involved is to chain myself to my computer (or there's no time for character interaction).
- Too many storylines going on at once.
- Chuting and scripting scenes, whether from the ST or from rigid OOC ideas about how a scene should go in order to be 'good' or get a certain thing done.
- Excessive focus on The Writing. 'Good Writing' should never come at the expense of 'Good RP'. They often go together, but they are not the same thing.
- OOC nastiness and gossip and us-vs-them mentalities. I think we're more or less past this, as a group, but it's easy to fall into so it's worth being careful about.
- Yeah: too much IC cooperation.
- Wall-hugging and waiting to be asked to dance. Don't make me hold your hand, beg you, or twist your arm to come play.
- Combative player/admin relations.
- Lots of stuff you guys have already pointed out that I just happen to agree with.


I could go on (obviously the 'things I have liked' list got a bit out of hand). But I love WtA and I am looking to get things started right away, or at least soon. One thing I've noticed is how guilty I am of some of the stuff on my own 'things I have not liked' list, and some of the stuff on other people's lists. But that means I can do better. But I also think that clearly, those of us who are interested in this game are interested enough to have played it under some pretty unpleasant conditions.

The reason I want to know all this isn't because I want to come up with a checklist to create the perfect system. That's not going to happen. But I didn't want to start coming up with ideas about how to get things going and base those ideas on assumptions about what I think matters to other people. As it turns out, I think it's pretty clear that we like a lot (if not most) of the same things when we're playing WtA.

Since, as I said, I actually do want to get things going, I'm going to take all this (and anything that may be added here, or in email, or in FPM) and let it marinate a bit in my brain. If you guys have specific ideas you want to share, please do. Email is probably best for that for now.

Discussion's not over. Keep chiming in on what's already been talked about here. There will be more to come.

[Mecklar]

I have played Wta many times and absolutely love the game, only recently joined the site, but fully intend to create a character for the werewolf game

[Damon]

Nice! Welcome to the site, Mecklar.

I think I'm gonna make a new char too :] I'm bouncing some vague ideas around. I'll likely keep Rafael though.

[kai]

Hey everyone (hi Mecklar!). Like I said, this is an ongoing discussion. I've been thinking about settings. Not settings I loved or settings I hated, but what about the settings I loved and hated. It's another area where I see plenty of things I don't like, but have done myself. (This is a learning experience.)

I think that a role-playing setting for regular use should be like good design: 99% invisible. It's important, but when it's done right, you don't think about it that much. It facilitates a purpose, rather than getting in the way, waving itself in your face.

The reason I'm thinking about this now is that I believe we have a good opportunity to adjust the setting and make it more useful to us, and I think some adjustments do need to be made. But again, all the brainstorming I can do on my own isn't helpful if I start from assumptions.

So, thinking specifically about settings, what do you guys think makes a setting easier to play in? What frustrates or grinds in the gears of role-play? Don't think necessarily about what makes sense IC or what characters you play might think, just... come at it solely from the perspective of "did this make it easier or harder for me to play?"

I'd also be interested in preferences. Do you tend to like urban games or rural games more? Have you had more fun in big septs or little ones? What do you think about lots of NPCs versus very few NPCs?

And if I haven't said it yet: thanks for all the input on this thread. Even if you aren't currently playing or interested in playing WtA, I am curious to hear what people think and what their experiences have been. Please continue sharing; it's appreciated.

[mnemosyne]

Am I interested in making a go of a WtA game?

If you asked me personally: would you make a WtA character? I don't know. I like WtA and have really loved it in the past, but I am geniunely on-the-fence as to whether I am interested in it enough to take it up again. I miss some of the camaraderie of straight-up WtA one shots but my enthusiasm for WtA has really never gone back to the level it was back on Chicago. When I've created WtA characters since, it was either because of the activity levels in the system or because I wanted to play with some of the players I could only find in the system. So, that's a maybe?

From the site perspective, I think it would be really great if more systems were more active and there were oneshots and whatnot.

What have you liked about WtA games in the past?

I have a list of likes and dislikes, pet peeves and preferences, but when I think about WtA games that I have really, really enjoyed there is no set formula. I had ridiculous fun with a pack that was created to make havoc in a pretty rigid setting, but it wasn't just the intrapack play, it was also the interaction with other folks around. I had alot of fun in a setting with no caern and no ST where a bunch of literal misfits randomly came together and created a pack. I had fun running the WtA game on Chicago years ago with a big, overarching, bifurcated storyline where I worked really hard to involve loads of different people (while simultaneously running a separate storyline for the folks who had left the Caern) and where no one was in serious dice danger (we rolled behind the scenes then and I cheated in favor of PCs), but everyone thought they were. Also, FYI: in that game I predicted the economic collapse of 2008.

Seriously. The Wyrm in my game was selling subprime mortgages. Credit default stops and torture may or may not have been involved.

--

Then I, er, left. And came back and had alot of fun in the same setting with a thoroughly different character and diverse assortment of weirdos to-boot. Then I had fun with a WtA character who absolutely eschewed the Caern and ended up in the strangest little pack ever.

--

But regardless of admins or the lack thereof, contentiousness or cooperation, what made those circumstances fun was the diverse assortment of folks who would seek or start or show up for RP and who seemed genuinely interested in each other's characters.

Reciprocity, cooperation, interest and consideration.

--

I have this really great tennis metaphor that I want to develop, but it is kind of like playing a weird round-robin of tennis with various players shuffling in and out, but there's one ball, right? If I serve, you need to hit it back or we can't play. That is literally the definition of "the ball is in your court." Or, you have to go and pick it up and serve it back later. Sometimes you need to volley to keep things going. If you're playing doubles but only hit it to one person on the other team, and the other person never gets a chance at the ball. I mean, really, all my actual pet peeves come down to things that in my experience impede that ebb and flow. I want to be interested in other people's characters. I also: want them to be interested in mine. I like to see other people RPing together when it doesn't involve me. I like when people talk about SL things that happen to them in scenes when the ST is not around to tell them what to do. Fundamentally, I like space for people to be themselves within the framework of: also thinking about other people.

I don't know how to build that into a game because it's not about rules, it's about community that is both structured enough for interaction and elastic enough for loads of styles and interested and whatnot. I mean, some of those pet peeves, I resemble: Good Writing? Fuck, I like Good Writing. I don't expect it from other people, but for me - part of the fun is feeling inspired, and feeling like I'm writing well and feeling like I'm wiggling my way through strange thoughts and ideas that are on-the-verge of inexpressible with words, or when I am storytelling, maybe just creeping players out. And some of those likes (kin-garou relations) are sometimes some of my pet peeves. Here is a secret! I am: not a big fan of kinfolk as a splat. Seriously, I'm not. That has never stopped me from playing in a game with kinfolk or: playing kinfolk. I would be pretty happy with a kinfolk-free (or kinfolk NPC) but most people wouldn't so that would not work!

But: I don't think that stuff matters as much in the end as that back-and-forth, that engagement, which I really believe in, not on a chain-self-to-computer-level so much as an if-we-all-want-to-have-fun level.

I stayed up late tonight to try to corral these thoughts into something coherent, because otherwise it was not going to get done, so I hope that is helpful!

[Damon]

Setting-wise:

- Definitely prefer urban. There's only so much treehugging you can do.
- Definitely prefer smaller Sept... or rather, a more "background" Sept. I hate feeling like my char is a tiny cog in a huge machine with 10,000 higher-ranked chars piled over him.
- In line with that: few NPCs.

Overall, I like settings where the PCs feel more central. I think an analogy that pops into mind for me would be the Harry Potter movies. I know I'm about to commit blasphemy here, but I generally felt quite 'meh' about the series. The one exception was HP7-1, which I loved to death -- and I think in retrospect it was mainly because that was the ONE movie where the main chars were on their own. They were no longer bound by the confines of Hogwarts and its rules; they had neither its restrictions nor its protection. Thus all of a sudden the danger felt more imminent and present, and it felt like they were more responsible for their own fate. This all combined to make the storyline feel deeper, richer, and more significant.

That's kinda how it is for WtA, I think. I'm in favor of a setting where our chars are essentially thrown into the concrete jungle with as little support and structure as possible. For example (and this is only an example), it might be interesting to do away with any sort of Sept at all in the city, push the rural Caern into the background, and just let a bunch of characters run loose. I think it'd allow for more freedom and, by corollary, more danger. I think it'd also lead eventually to feeling like we have more of a stake in whatever structure we might establish for ourselves.

[Jacqui]

First of all, Damon, how dare you. Go and sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

Quote:So, thinking specifically about settings, what do you guys think makes a setting easier to play in? What frustrates or grinds in the gears of role-play? Don't think necessarily about what makes sense IC or what characters you play might think, just... come at it solely from the perspective of "did this make it easier or harder for me to play?"

I'd also be interested in preferences. Do you tend to like urban games or rural games more? Have you had more fun in big septs or little ones? What do you think about lots of NPCs versus very few NPCs?

Secondly, to refer directly to your questions, Ms Kai! The interesting thing for myself, I think, with regards to settings and something that might not be (or may be, I don't know) as much a consideration for those of you who know Denver and live there or in places in the US is that all of it comes purely from what I deduce and read and sort of piece together of these places. So in a sense, my picture of the backdrop really becomes whatever I decide it is.

In a way, it's hugely helpful because Denver can be as WoD-ish as I decide it is (likewise any place I don't know) but in another way, it can be problematic for me because there are details that escape me or I don't understand the nuances of. Anyway, that all leading to - I think less intricate detail on a setting has always helped me. I enjoy knowing bits and pieces but I think sometimes the setting being, for example, more a Gotham City idea rather than a fixed place can aid that idea of this world on the brink of anything.

At least, for WtA's purposes.

All that being said - original creations, that is, places like a Caern or a player run boarding house, I think are great with some details. Because they aren't set to any real life comparison (aside from, perhaps, a vague idea of where in a city/rural area they are), there's no limit on imagination with them, so I can fill in blanks while playing and not worry so much that I just, for example, moved a huge lake out of time and space.

As for preferences! Definitely urban, definitely a smaller Sept and I think a handful of strong supporting NPCs works really well. Though I say urban mostly out of selfish reasons as I typically play characters like SFs and am contemplating a GW.