so what do we do about the dancer kin? [attn: anyone interested]
Late last night, three Cliaths and a kinswoman barely escaped a Wyrm-napalmed building with their hides intact. One of them carried a kicking and screaming human bartender/waitress out. She promptly ran the f' away. Another of them carried a baby out -- an infant born to Dancers.

And somewhere in the mix, also, was the mother. A broken woman, will shattered, mind nearly gone. They didn't know what to do with her, so they brought her along. In the extraction van they drugged her up. Her eyes rolled back and she was out. When they got to Cold Crescent, the Guardians put her in a holding cell. Hours went by. A whole day. Erich, one of those three Cliaths and arguably the reason all of them very nearly died horribly, calls home. Calls Charlotte, because Melantha doesn't have a cell phone. Talks to them a little, tells them what's up, tells them he'll be staying at the Sept just a bit longer.

He sleeps there. He grabs some chow. And now,

now he's standing outside the holding cell, on the other side of one-way glass. He's sipping apple juice out of a juice box, and he's frowning. It's his Thoughtful Frown.

"So what are we gonna do with her?"
[I'm actually going to encourage some more IC involvement in this before having an NPC respond! LET'S GET THAT MOB-STYLE CLAMORING GOING.]
my whole life is thunder.
Sam is there, too. She was the one holding the baby in the vehicle. She was the one who released him into the Den Father's gentle hands. She crashed out in one of the spare rooms for the night and she slept surprisingly well, all things considered.

It's all of a day later and she's still around. She's showered and her clothes are being washed. She's just now coming from seeing the sleeping baby, and from speaking to the Den Father.

Now, before she goes, she checks in on the mother. She looks for people to talk to in order to voice her opinion on the very matter Erich is wondering about. That's how she finds him. And she tries not to laugh at the image of a man more than foot taller than her, a wall of solid muscle, sipping from a juice box with his srs face on.

-- Like she's one to judge, the petite kinswoman is wearing borrowed clothes, the t-shirt made for someone Erich's size that hangs so low it all but hides the hem of the shorts she's also borrowed ---

It's hard to hide that amusement. Luckily she doesn't have to.

It dies and bleeds right out of her when she sees the woman in the holding cell. Stepping forward, she places her palm to the glass.

"People are talking about killing her." She doesn't say 'euthanize.' Sam doesn't see it that way, no matter how much of a sick, wounded animal the woman appears to be now. "I am one hundred billion percent against it," she says back over her shoulder at the Ahroun and whomever else is there, in a way that holds both conviction and determination, but also with a bit of trepidation. She's Kinfolk. At best she can hope they'll take her words under advisement, but ultimately the Garou will do what the Garou will do.

Looking back at the figure through the glass, she says, "If it's resources people are worried about, I can pay for her room and board. I can help with her counseling, too. But if we kill our own because they're damaged or because there might be a chance they're in some way dangerous..." She trails off, shaking her head, fingers curling against the glass. "No, our Kin." They can't see her face, but from the sound of her voice her teeth are clenched.

Because Fern murdered River of Clouds and is now being cared for at Forgotten Questions.

Because Kelly was the one guarding Champion of Honor's prone body in a room smeared with blood and entrails.

And don't even start with Champion of Honor himself.

Being Kin herself, obviously Sam would have some concern over their treatment. Turning around, she leans back against the window. She shrugs her shoulder.

"Then what does that make us?"
As a member of Desert Oracles, Keisha makes regular visits to both Cold Crescent and Forgotten Questions. It is their responsibility, the mission of their pack, to tend to the spiritual needs of the city and that includes both Septs. She learned of the incident the previous night when she stopped by Cold Crescent earlier in the day and spoke with Sam, Hector and Thomas.

So it's not a surprise, perhaps, that she stopped by to see the woman. She is making regular visits anyway to look in on Champion of Honor and Kelly, both of whom she helped retrieve and feels responsibility for. And she is there to hear the question be asked, and Sam's stringent--one might even say vehement--response.

Anyone who knows of the vow that Keisha took soon after her First Change will be able to guess this one; it's probably the least surprising stance anyone might take in this situation. The Theurge is often gentle and calm, warm and open. The thought that killing this kinfolk might even be considered has her different. It has her angry.

It's a contained anger, to be fair. She doesn't rant and rave, she doesn't threaten. She doesn't punch anything inanimate, or animate for that matter. But there's nothing approaching joy in her expression, and she's the quiet kind of calm that makes lesser people nervous as she moves to stand next to Sam. A mocha hand comes to rest on the other woman's shoulder.

"We can help her," she says quietly. "Whatever happened to her, whatever choices she may or may not have made...we have to try." She squeezes Sam's shoulder and turns to mirror Sam's stance, leaning against the glass with her staff held next to her. It's a show of solidarity. And she's not being hostile to any one person…certainly not Erich, who merely asked the question that needed to be asked. It doesn't stop her from being angry, but it's not targeted anger.

"I'll contribute whatever I need to. I'll claim her under my protection. But I can't stand by and see her die."

It's resolute. And the offer to claim her is genuine; there isn't any sort of flippancy about it. With that, she falls quiet next to Sam. Her position has been made quite clear.

Not that anyone would have thought otherwise from a Garou who will not kill.
"The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules."
"Good men don't need rules. And today's not the day to find out why I have so many."
[all my PCs have THOUGHTS on this, but I have major issues with putting them all in the same place at the same time (particularly considering the odds of all of them being in the same place). So, here is a combined thought post for this issue.]


When Keisha enters and comes to stand beside her, Sam offers her a small smile and she moves a little closer.



It's unlikely that the sept will come to a decision that night. When Phoebe is next in 1999 Broadway, she makes it known that she stands with her packsister. The mission of their pack is to protect and tend to the spiritual needs of the city.

Killing a Kin, a damaged one who knows no better, is a decision that would - or should - weigh heavily on their people. Phoebe would say that counts.

And she would ask her family or her fellow tribesmates within the city to assist if they can. There are rites among their tribe to help with women like the mother. Use it. Help her. Heal her.

[and this is the part where Niko really wishes she had the XP to get Phoebe that Black Fury rite, Soothe the Scars, but Pheeb's all tapped out, ah well]


Usually when Ingrid is found in the Broadway building, she's on the top floor training. When the question reaches her ears, the Ragabash's thoughts are as expected as Keisha's, though she doesn't voice them directly.

What she says to whomever has asked for her opinion is, "Is this to be the precedent? You take in their broken, their useless, and you dedicate your people and your resources to keeping them alive. Will they know what you do for them? Will she?"
Thomas moves to stand behind Samantha, looking past her at the kinfolk that they have captured. Rescued? That seems incredibly uncertain. For all that it is Sam and Keisha he's come to stand closest to, when speaks it isn't exactly to agree with them.

"I'd be in complete agreement with you if all we were talking about was letting her out with people she couldn't threaten. You're not afraid of her, and you're far from helpless, but that is not where all of our kin stand. We do have kin that we know are ours, and we have to protect them too. They're our family." Sam, if she looks back at him, gets a very brief, apologetic smile. "I wasn't really expecting to keep her, I just thought we might be more merciful than the fire. I'm not even sure there is enough of her left in there to save, even if we were willing to do it."

"Still, if there is a reasonable chance we can reclaim her, we should take it. The Wyrm has taken enough from us already. Might as well take some thing back." There is a flash of a grin. "Annnnnnd, it makes that guy we got into it with really angry. I'm all for things that people who impale me don't like."
When Thomas gives Sam that look she offers him a slight smile and a small shake of her head. She doesn't blame him for his more practical assessment. Truth is, there's a part of her that agrees with him.

There's a much larger part of her, however, that will stand and protect this woman.

"No one's suggesting we release her into the wild immediately," she says. "She should be kept safe, both for us and from us." Because, sadly, there are plenty angry at the tremendous loss of life on their side who might take that anger out on the broken, damaged, defenseless Spiral kin. "She's loyal to them, but there's no way to know now if she started off that way, or if she's been Stockholm'd into submission."

Sam looks from Thomas to Keisha to Erich to whomever, taking in the few or the gathered with a look. "She's dangerous." It's a statement, she's not arguing or disagreeing on that point. "But is she more dangerous than the Spiral cubs? She's been broken. What about Champion of Honor?"

She shrugs, and she repeats what she said to Hosea a little while ago. "Working with her is going to be hard and I don't know if it'll work. I don't know if she can be saved, either. It could be months, or years before we know for certain. But I have to try. I can't stand by and let her be killed just because she's covered in question marks and uncertainty."
Like Sam, Keisha doesn't give Thomas any hostility for his thoughts on the matter. As much as she is morally opposed to what he's suggesting, he's being reasonable. And while there are those who would consider Keisha naive for her ways, she really isn't. She understands how complicated her dedication to preserving life is in the middle of a war, even in the best of situations. And this isn't the best of situations.

"She's not the source of the problem," she says, turning her head to look at the shell of a woman behind the glass. "Even if she was born and raised within their Hell...even if she grew up in ours and chose to cross the line. At the very least, the odds that she just decided 'I'm going to help destroy everything' are pretty damned low." She shakes her head and looks at Sam, smiling a little bit. It's a supportive expression and it rises up through the anger she's feeling at the thought that there are those out there who want to rend the detained kinfolk to pieces.

"We have to try. And we're going to."

She looks back to the group gathered there as a whole, her staff set against the glass next to her so she can cross her arms over her chest. "If we just put an end to her, we take the easy way out. It's more convenient and it's less messy. But we also destroy a part of us if we do. Another piece shaved off from us, bit by bit. We weren't given our blessings and gifts and tools by the Goddess so we could do the easy thing. This time, we have to do the hard thing."
"The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules."
"Good men don't need rules. And today's not the day to find out why I have so many."
No one is really paying much mind to the Cliaths as they are. They are, after all, Cliaths -- oh, here's a Fostern, there's a Fostern. There's even a kin: how cute.

They debate, and they argue, and the guardians are out guarding the sept and the elders are working, but there are a few who listen in, who join in the arguments for all sides: what do you do with a broken-minded kin to Spirals?

Some say to Sam: that's not our kin in there. But they misunderstand her clenched teeth.

Some say to Keisha: how can you be so sure? and who says you get a say in it at all?

And some say to Ingrid: we're not a supreme court; this isn't about precedent, this is about doing what's right for the good of the sept now.

And some say to Thomas that he's absolutely right, just because Sam feels safe helping her doesn't mean any other kin can or should; this woman could hurt them. Some take what he says a bit too far, too: they keep talking about protecting their kinfolk. They rally to euthanize her, sure: mercifully, like Thomas said. Yeah. He's right, we should kill her. Mercifully.

Won't it be mercy?

But wait: what if that guy, that mate or whatever of hers, comes after her?

what if he comes after us for killing her?

Voices raise. Someone comes out and informs them that yes, good little Cliaths and Kin, your voices are heard. Your concerns have been noted. Now run along. The sept will be made aware when a decision is reached, which won't be until it's determined whether or not the woman is capable of talking to the Warder.

Shoo, little lambs.

my whole life is thunder.

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