POLL: Considering a Heretical Change

[Samael]

Hey guys. So this is something I've been considering ever since I took over Mage. It's been on the backburner of my mind for a while now, but as more and more people come up for Seekings, it's becoming more present and I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on it. Long story short: Mage, I feel, is one of the most expensive systems to "level up" in. Spheres cost beaucoup amount of XP and that's before we even get into the fact that you have to spend current XP * 8 for a Seeking. I want you guys to be able to grow your PCs and not just be "humans with a few powers" withyout overpowering the system.

As such, what I have been considering is something from the Mage ST Handbook. It's under "A Heretical Suggestion" (thus the title of this thread) and basically boils down to this: there is no XP cost for seekings. Yep. None at all. Instead, Seekings happen when the player and Admin decide the PC is ready for one.

Now, I'm sure that the initial reaction is "YES PLEASE" but there are some counterbalances for this; it's not intended to just make it easier to level up. The first is that it's not just as easy as saying "I want a Seeking!" and you get one. The PC has to be ready for one, which as I said would be decided by the player and Admin (and IC, by the Avatar). That would mean we would initiate a conversation about why the PC is ready for the seeking. I like this because it means that the reason for advancement is based on character growth, not XP.

It also means that I would encourage (and I would do so myself) those running Seekings to make them challenging and make failure a possibility. Failure is always a possibility on a Seeking, but I don't think anyone would deny that as an ST, it feels pretty shitty to fail someone when they've spent months gathering up the XP only to be denied. I think that it would free up possibilities for great RP.

Obviously it requires a lot of trust between players and Admin/STs. If I think your mage isn't ready for a Seeking, I would explain to you why and would certainly be willing to debate it. As a side effect, I will refund XP that players who have already gone on Seekings have spent because that just wouldn't be god-damned fair.

So I want to hear your opinions on this. Vote in the poll, post here and explain your reasons why you're for or against it. Bring up concerns you may have. This is a big potential change and I want everyone to voice their thoughts.

Thanks guys!

[-ix-]

So I have reservations, but I still think that is awesome.

1. While you and I have always been on a page, Mage is one of the most interpretive games in the history of the ever. What constitutes as ready for a Seeking or proper conditions for passing a Seeking is likely gonna be a little weird between people sometimes.
**XP might not be the ideal way to decide when you can have a Seeking, but it does mean that no one feels their character is being denied Seekings and other people are getting them if you use it as a pretty general guideline. Your player base at present is fantastic, but you and I have been places, and this game is open to all comers. I don't see that being a thing at present, but if we get the wrong new people it might be. -- That said, administrative concerns like that are dumb reasons to not be awesome. But still, I mention.
**Hard Seekings are cool and all, but Seekings are going to be easier for some people than others based on who runs them and how they are approached and what you thing an appropriate challenge setting is.
**Failure makes people sad, and if hard Seekings are hard and you're having player meltdowns because they (as players) aren't picking up on what themes are going on and failing Seekings repeatedly, you might start to get issues.

That said I just failed a Seeking and it was one of the most successful scenes I have had with Kalen in pretty much every capacity but getting more Arete. I'm actually way more onboard for this for having done that, I think. I think it will give people some exposure to Avatars other than only the handful of times they get Arete if they have to go more than once on occasion. Plus it will let STs spring Seekings at opportune moments regardless of XP concerns for a number of characters (although past a point only Sam, alas). So that if we have any of the likely triggering events, we can pounce them!!!

Anyway. I'm voicing concerns but voting yes!!! *stops babbling and goes to vote*

[errin]

My response to this is YES for a few reasons.

My thoughts as Director
The main reason goes with the whole purpose of creating Word of Darkness: Denver. This whole site is one big experiment in trust. My trust in the Admins, their trust in me and in the players, all of us trusting in each other to do what's best for the overall good of playing these games. If we trust in each other then we can experiment more and do things that aren't possible on sites where the management tends to be more tight-fisted.

Which doesn't mean that everyone will get everything they want all the time, but hopefully players trust that the Admins have their best interests and the best interests of their systems in mind when they make any decisions.

So as the Director I am all about experimenting with new ways of managing systems and character advancement.


My thoughts as a player
Now for the meat of my response! I'm for this because I feel like the Arete XP expenditure is an extra challenge that isn't terribly necessary. According to the book, putting aside what individual Traditions think about it, the basic mechanic of rank is that a character's rank is determined by their Sphere rating. That means that they have to fork out a minimum of 30XP to go from Initiate to Disciple (Arete 2 x 8 + Trad Spec Sphere 2 x 7). And forget about advancing stats like Attributes and Abilities.

That is madness. I think I play Mage pretty hardcore consistently and I kept having to push back Sid's Seeking because of XP spending. I can only imagine how hard it is for more casual players to have the XP ready for advancement.


So yeah, removing the XP expenditure for Seekings appeals to me both as the Director and as a player. It's a new thing that would take some time to work out all the kinks before it settled into a system everyone was happy with, but I genuinely trust this playerbase to be able to work something out like adults.

[Damon]

I'm a yes too. If nothing else, no other system demands XP of its players to "level up". Sure, you have to pay for the gifts/disciplines/arts/whatnot, but to gain the rank itself is OOCly free, and ICly based purely on roleplay. Doing away with the XP cost for arete, but keeping the XP cost for spheres, would put mage on the same system.

[jamie]

I have thoughts on this leaning towards the "no" side but I am on my phone and wine. By Monday I will have an intelligent opinion to share with y'all.

[Shayla]

I would say yes to this idea, predominately because it does mean for a great chance of RP immersion, seekings should be spontaneous and unusual they are not the sort of things that should require booking or an appointment. Some characters advance at a much quicker pace then others, experiencing and growing in ways that make a seeking entirely possible! But perhaps they don't actually get into enough SL's or necessarily play in enough scenes. It isn't fair to negate their ability to gain that seeking, when they will still have to pay plenty for that first sphere and the ones beyond.

[Howl]

We handle Arete on this site differently than they do in the book, and I think that the current XP system makes more sense in a game where Arete isn't capped and doesn't necessarily correlate to a mage's rank. It's a lot harder to gain Arete in our game, partly as a measure of balance, and partly to make up for the fact that we don't require players to pass Seekings when they buy up their spheres (or rather, it's assumed the Seeking happened successfully off-camera.) So given a system where Arete is rare and takes a lot of character development to earn, I do think that the added cost of XP may be unnecessary. And it would keep the focus where it needs to be - on the character's own growth.

Now, that said? Arete seekings aren't actually about rising in rank, although obviously there's a strong correlation. The reason you have to pay for Arete is because having more of it makes your character more powerful. Willpower and Gnosis and the like are similar stats that should also be raised based on character growth, but that still need to be paid for with XP. If you really break it down, the xp system is pretty imperfect all around, but it's the best way we have of keeping the system standardized, which is important from a perspective of fairness. Not because there's a lack of trust here (I think everyone on this site is mature and awesome and I can't say I've really ever noticed anyone trying to cheat the system) but because subjective judgment calls are very difficult to make fairly and accurately without being 100% on top of everything that all of the characters are doing. And that's very difficult in an open system.

So really, like Ix, I have both positive feelings and reservations. But I do want to say that I totally trust Sam (and the player base as a whole) to make this kind of ruling work. So I'm cool with it if it's what people want. And I'm also cool with keeping things as they are.

As far as my vote goes? I'm going to abstain for now (I may change my mind and toss my hat in if I hear a particularly convincing argument,) but consider me in favor of letting people play the game they want to play.

[tithe]

Um. So. I say 'no.'

With some caveats! I wouldn't mind a changing of the XP cost to take a new level of arete following a successful Seeking so that it is easier to bank and people can feel more able to go Seeking and to buy Spheres. I acknowledge merit behind the 'but a character's mental progress might not align with arbitrary XP number' argument.

But arete isn't just a 'rank.' Arete is dice, man. In the other systems, ranking up sometimes allows you to buy things you couldn't before (in Werewolf mostly) while coming with a lot more social pull. In Mage, I don't feel that. I do remember giddily and gleefully rolling three dice for Arete the one time I did have a character Seek Up and trying to explain how AWESOME THE POWER FELT to a Werewolf player who was like: whatever, man. Three dice? Pshaw.

But three dice, man. That was awesome. I can only dare dream of four.

Arete is a potent manifestation of a Mage's experience as a Mage and as a PC. Experience. The work (even if much of it is happening below the surface) that goes into it should - I feel - be attained at a 'loss' as far as spending those experience points elsewhere. Like: if Johnny K is working on nothing but painting, painting, painting and he jumps from Painting 3 to Painting 4, it makes sense to me that Enlightenment would also be delayed while he takes that next amazing level of proficiency in the actual skill. But let's say Johnny K's paradigm is all about experience and the Muse and being mused - okay? And instead of taking that next level of proficiency in the skill, he had an Epiphany (Seeking), so the XP went to Arete. He's still Painting 3 but now he's Arete 3 too, so Painting 4 might be delayed for a while, given the cost of a level three Sphere, but doesn't that make sense? And couldn't he have had some mini-epiphanies or hints of his Avatar along the way to the Big Seeking? Wouldn't that be fun as heck to RP out?

Also, like. I feel that a jump-up in Arete doesn't necessarily mean a PC should immediately attain the next level of a Sphere, too. Magick is suddenly easier; you're suddenly thinking about things in a slightly different way. Why shouldn't that take some time to wiggle into?

I like that there's a sacrifice of Other Things if you're going to take another level of Arete. Maybe the sacrifice is a little too costly for the chronicle and the way RP works online? Because really: I wouldn't mind House Ruling the math so that it less expensive to buy another level or for, like, some 'I wrote this mood-post about my character's mental state and why their avatar might want to push them' discount. I totally get that some people don't have the opportunities to gain XP that others do because they're not actually RPing as much and that their inability to play 24-7 doesn't necessarily mean anything at all about their PCs progress along enlightenment relative to the people who can be around all the time, and I don't want them (I say them - but c'mon, this is totally me) to be penalized. But I do think that it needs to cost. XP-wise, that is.

Oh. And on a more administrative level: we're a small system and everybody mostly knows everybody, but I just imagine it being a huge hassle / headache / nightmare, not because there's a lack of trust, but because it just seems like fine-toothed comb/more work. And I thought that one already had to have a talk about whether a PC was ready to try for the next level of Arete, etc., so isn't that conversation already in place?

That is all. For now. I guess! I mean I will not weep if the XP cost is done away with, per se. But yes.

[-ix-]

My next group of TT Mages is going to be so confused when because of this discussion I implement a modified Renown system that gives them points to buy Seekings and cool Mage gifts/status/familiars/Wonders.

And then I will be like: "I feel like XP is imperfect and I want your Seekings to be based on your RP/character actions. But I also want you to level up your other stuff. Also I love Renown!!!"

[Damon]

Here's the thing -- per creation pages: "Arete level in the Denver Mage game corresponds to the Mage's Rank." Thus, on this site we've tethered highest sphere to arete to rank. Meaning a rank 3 mage has arete 3, and has top sphere(s) of 3. Meaning also a rank 3 mage cannot have an arete of, say, 6. A rank three mage will always have arete 3 and thus three dice to roll; RPing until your eyes bleed won't earn you arete 5 billion.

In a system where we play by the book, and rank is merely tethered to highest sphere, and arete is kinda its own thing and a measure of a mage's enlightenment -- then yes. You shouldn't be able to gain enlightenment for free. In our system? As far as I can tell, arete will always be capped at rank, and rank is defined by highest sphere. They're all tethered. So we're basically forcing players to pay twice to rank up, and thus: my vote of yes, do away with the XP thing for arete.