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Poll: How do you feel about these changes?
This poll is closed.
I like them all, let's do it!
0%
0 0%
I would prefer not to make any changes.
16.67%
1 16.67%
I like some of these, but not all. [See comment]
83.33%
5 83.33%
Total 6 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Proposed Character Sheet Changes
#1
Star 
A couple weeks ago, I mentioned briefly in the announcements that I was considering some changes to the character sheets. I also mentioned that these changes will not be imposed unless the majority of active players approve of them. Given the general hassle of revising character sheets, and the impact that these kinds of changes can have on the game, I prefer to make these kinds of decisions democratically. So bearing that in mind, if you guys aren't cool with any of the proposed alterations then I'll drop the idea and leave things as they are (for now.)

Changes to Abilities

Back when I started the Mage game, I had it in my head that I needed to keep the ability trees limited to 10 traits each. I no longer feel like that is strictly necessary (bumping them up to 11 or even 12 probably won't hurt anything - so long as we stick to the same number of traits in each tree.) And while I stand by some of the choices I made back then (getting rid of Dodge was a no-brainer,) there are others that I've had time to rethink and alter my opinion on.

1: Add Empathy to Talents. (Awareness will no longer be used for Empathy-based rolls. All characters submitted prior to the change - both active and retired - will have Empathy scores grandfathered onto their sheets equal to their Awareness score.)

2: Add Law back to Knowledges. (Academics will no longer be used for Law rolls. Characters submitted prior to the change may - if appropriate - request that they be given a Law score up to the maximum of their Academics score [again, for free.])

3: Add Archery to Skills. (Athletics would no longer be used for Archery rolls. Characters submitted prior to the change may - if appropriate, and I will be a bit more picky with this one - request that they be given an Archery score up to the maximum of their Athletics score.)

I could nix this last one if people would prefer something else in its place. (See comments for other options.)

[Edit: The above skill was previously listed as a more general "Ranged Weapons," but I've since amended it based on player suggestions.]

Looking ahead to M20: There are a few new abilities that M20 introduces, but I have yet to read how they actually work (since the book isn't out yet) and to be honest I'm a bit skeptical of at least a couple of them (that doesn't mean we for sure won't add them - again, this is something we can decide on together.) If we do end up implementing new traits at that time, I will not be removing any old ones (unless it's just getting renamed/moved.) So it's possible that the ability trees might get bumped up to 12, or they might just stay where they are. We'll have to wait and see. But that change, at least, shouldn't require much disruption.

[Content cut. See comments.]
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#2
I am actually very down with some of these! I've thought for a while given how popular a social roll it is that we should have a proper Empathy roll so thumbs up to that change for me, along with most of the Abilities switch ups.

I raise a tentative not sure on the removal of Appearance for totally selfish, personal reasons in that it helps me a lot when I'm in the creative process of character creation to get a vibe on my character's physicality and how they approach the world but - ! If others are on board, I'm persuadable to give this new idea a shot, too.
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#3
After talking to a few of you privately, I think at this point I've gotten enough feedback to cut the proposed attribute revisions. Which, again, is totally fine. The more I discussed it, the more I felt like - while I like the changes - they would be too problematic to implement into an established game. (Who knows, maybe they'll make a reappearance in a pocket game some day.)

So thank you to those who've given me feedback so far. It really is helpful for me.
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#4
neeeeevermind. Misread something!
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#5
I'm definitely up for the first two.

The bit about ranged, I'm not quite so sure about. I guess because it feels a bit like splitting off a very refined set of skills into their own set of spots. I can see your point of it being a bit cheesy that they're rather different from running a marathon or climbing to the side of a cliff - but then those are two rather separate abilities that come under the same dots too.

Skimming over the M20 character sheet, Technology shifts over from Knowledge to Skills. If we did that, would there be another Knowledge that could take its place? Politics, which I'm guessing won't be amazingly different from V20's version. That would keep equal numbers in each column.

Or add Martial Arts in. Again it's a M20 thing, although it rather annoyingly doesn't crop up in W20 or V20. But it's presumably to cover trained hand-to-hand fighting (and martial weapons?), which might be a better slot for archery and thrown?

I'm really not saying I'm against adding in Ranged Weapons, by the way. Just wondering if there might be a better use for the slot.
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#6
I would prefer not to speculate on the M20 abilities, honestly. Since I really don't know at this stage what exactly they intend them to represent. I mean, I can guess based on the titles, but that's really not enough for me to feel comfortable making a decision about whether or not they'd be valuable additions to the character sheet.

As for Archery, I am totally ok with choosing something else in its place. Initially I started with a list of 3 abilities which included:

Archery (or something similar)
High Ritual
Politics


(the latter two would involve moving Technology to Skills.)

The reason I ultimately chose Archery as my top pick was because 1: I think of the three it's the one that currently bugs me the most as far as how it's represented on the sheet, and 2: It involves the least amount of fuss.

Politics is totally an option though. Personally, it's my least favorite of the three, for a couple of reasons. As we play the game here on the site, Politics as a stat isn't very useful for mages unless they actually intend to get involved in local (sleeper) government. And for those characters who do take an active interest in politics, either mundane or awakened, there are other traits that cover political influence. Namely: Influence and Contacts. Interpersonal actions (diplomacy, persuasiveness, etc) are generally better suited to social traits, and lawmaking can fall under Law if we put it back in. But I can see the argument that macro-level political machinations don't really have a good stat other than "Politics." I can't say I really perceive there being a need for that? Just because, again, there aren't really any awakened politics to get involved with in Denver (unless your character has broader connections and wants to explore those.) But, then again, I could be wrong. Players come up with all sorts of fun and surprising ways to use skills. And I'm not like, adamantly against it or anything. So if people would prefer Politics, we can go with Politics.

High Ritual, on the other hand, is already allowed in the game. So we wouldn't really be changing a lot. It's just currently not on the sheet. The reason being that, at the time I made that decision, I figured it was a very specialized trait that probably not a lot of people even knew about - let alone wanted to take. So I stuck it up with those "optional additional abilities." However, unlike the rest of the abilities listed there, High Ritual is not specific to one Tradition. Do and Enochian aren't on the character sheet because they have limited availability. Anyone with an appropriate concept can take High Ritual though. So it might actually make sense to add it to the sheet. (Particularly since we're proposing to add Empathy, which is the other ability listed in the Guide to Traditions. I suppose if we add one, it wouldn't hurt to add them both.) And if anyone is wondering "why would I ever want to take this ability?" It allows you to bypass the Arete+WP limit on total successes with an effect. So, you know, it is actually quite useful for characters who like to cast larger, more involved and/or longer term rotes.

So yeah, those are two alternate options to adding an Archery skill, if anyone would prefer one of those instead.

(02-17-2015, 01:31 PM)vesta Wrote: I'm definitely up for the first two.

The bit about ranged, I'm not quite so sure about. I guess because it feels a bit like splitting off a very refined set of skills into their own set of spots. I can see your point of it being a bit cheesy that they're rather different from running a marathon or climbing to the side of a cliff - but then those are two rather separate abilities that come under the same dots too.

Skimming over the M20 character sheet, Technology shifts over from Knowledge to Skills. If we did that, would there be another Knowledge that could take its place? Politics, which I'm guessing won't be amazingly different from V20's version. That would keep equal numbers in each column.

Or add Martial Arts in. Again it's a M20 thing, although it rather annoyingly doesn't crop up in W20 or V20. But it's presumably to cover trained hand-to-hand fighting (and martial weapons?), which might be a better slot for archery and thrown?

I'm really not saying I'm against adding in Ranged Weapons, by the way. Just wondering if there might be a better use for the slot.
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#7
High Ritual certainly sounds like it would get more use than Politics would.

Ooh - then add Archery in to the list of extra abilities?
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#8
Kalen would want High Ritual.
Josephine would only laugh and say that Sauntering is the new best skill.

I...really don't care. I think all of those have relatively narrow scope of application, but are hardly the only things with a narrow scope of application. The only one on that list I think I would use is High Ritual, but that is less because it is the best and more because Kalen. (Okay, maybe Politics, but that would again be because Kalen, who I sort of meant to reinvolve in the Order at some point. But even if that happens, there are rolls which really can work well enough for that, as you mentioned. Whatevs.) But if I was playing a Mage who was really into playing Robin Hood (or just got way too into Arrow), I'd probably be saying Archery is the only one of those skills I'd use.

tl'dr: Whatever you want. Smile
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#9
Yeah, at this point we're pretty much debating the finer points of a handful of very specialized skills that I think most people don't have terribly strong feelings about (myself included.) I'm honestly fine with that though. I would rather add something specialized than something general, at this stage. That way it won't have a huge effect on the way players divide their dots during character creation. Adding new general skills tends to make people go 'oh, you know, I should probably get like one dot in this just in case.' Which takes points away from other, more fun things.

I'm less concerned with trying to make a value judgment on which trait is better (since, yeah, I mean, all of these are things that are cool for characters who use them and kind of 'whatever' for everyone else) than just... what makes the most logical sense, I guess.

Bearing that in mind, I think the consensus so far is that everyone is fine rolling Athletics for Archery. (I'd rather not employ Archery without adding it to the sheet, since logistically that would still require people to change the way they roll that skill.) And yeah, high ritual is already in the game. And since it is, the only change that adding it to the sheet will cause is by moving Technology back to skills. Which... M20 does anyway. (Although I kind of like it better in knowledges, but eh.) So if no one has any strong feelings against that, I think I will go that route.

As it stands, the changes will be:

-Add Empathy to Talents
-Move Technology to Skills
-Add Law and High Ritual to Knowledges

I'll make an announcement tomorrow with my final decision and we can go from there.
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