POLL: Considering a Heretical Change

[WhitBloke]

It's a perennial pain in the Dots, isn't it? You're pumping XP into Arete before you can even think about buying ever-juicier Sphere ratings and you don't earn that online XP at anywhere near the same ratio of time-in-play to XP-reward as the Tabletop environment that the game was originally designed for. And that's not even to mention the arguably equal concern (cost!) of buying Abilities that actually suit a given Chronicle's nature so one's character fits a notable (but no less individual) niche in a cabal or chantry or what-have-you.
Still, the notion of XP-free Arete advancement is something that I addressed for players in TT and led to a surprisingly simple tweak of the Storyteller System's XP mechanics we could perhaps all be far more satisfied with here. Basically, the nature of this debate/vote rather invited me to put that system forward as an option since it seems to me to cover most bases inherent in the debate while suggesting an equitable alternative to the current XP costs for Arete advancement.

XP was spent as normal on everything save for Arete, but OVERALL XP earned was furthermore used (being as it is indicative of the character's progress, ultimately filtered through their paradigm and varied escapades, interactions and reflections) as a naturally ever-filling pool from which Arete was paid for automatically. After all, IC life goes on, and on, and on, and all inescapably save for retirement and death, and Mages experience it through the lens of their Awakened self and the depth of that experience results in the correlative depth of character advancement reflected in any given character's Arete rating. In this at least, there is nothing different between online and tabletop Mage that I can see.

In short, players were free to spend their Current XP on anything their little hearts desired - Spheres, Abilities, Attributes, Toffee, Cake, Gin, etc - while only their Total XP pool was used as a somewhat automatic indicator of which Arete level they were applicable to. ("I've got 46 Total XP now. Only 2 more points and I'm knocking on Arete 3's door!")

It was similar to the Renown system of Werewolf, yes, and the AD&D Level advancement system, but nonetheless workable in terms of Mage: The Ascension's inherent pecadilloes - and in a way which still relied upon the core experience-for-dots mechanics of the Storyteller System.

Seekings were still required in-play events, of course, and could be failed or passed according to how they were played out but every player knew that their character was on a somewhat inexorable arc towards higher Arete. In this way, we felt that parity and fairness between players and their respective characters was maintained. If people missed sessions, yes, they missed out on XP but it made no greater impact than that upon their progress towards higher Arete. A failed Seeking meant a holding pattern of a certain number of sessions, usually a month's worth so perhaps readily translatable to Denver's online nature, before a second attempt was run.
Furthermore, it meant that there could be no undue 'Arete Envy' between players. (Between Characters, hell yes! But not between Players!) Everybody was still playing within the same framework, to which each could refer with co-equal parity, regardless of how many new people joined the game, missed sessions or switched between characters at various points in the overall Chronicle.
Perhaps it might seem to others that it was a little lacking in the subjective awards of XP for excellent roleplaying or beautiful writing or what-have-you but Denver Mage has it's Kudos XP for that, and it would continue to take that into account so I believe it is at least a viably functional option for the game.

As a system, it does have one clear flaw when applied to Denver Mage. In Denver's specific case, what with different characters being able to start at different levels of Arete, there would however be an easy fix to the 'Total XP = Arete Indication' quirk - simply add the corresponding XP cost for starting Arete (1=8, 2=16, 3=24) to the Total XP (or, possibly, Arete XP) and go from there for subsequent in-play passing of XP 'waypoints' for Arete advancement.

Anyhow, there's my input to the debate: an option for an Arete Advancement system that is easily retro-fittable as required and effectively does away with XP expenditure for Arete advancement, retains the overall XP framework at the heart of character advancement, still requires the running of Seekings and would also forestall any questions of undue 'Arete Envy' and any attendance "Why can't I have higher Arete? He's got it, she's got it, everybody else has got it!" quibbles.
Sure, it's a compromise between the two 'extremes' generally suggested above but it's one that has a framework that I think goes some way to fit both poles of the debate.

[CourtCat]

While I also have reservations, I'm one of those people who simply isn't online (or, well, online with time to play semi-undistractedly and thus with consideration of my fellow players) as often as many, so though sometimes my characters are ready for Seekings (or rank challenges, or what have you), I simply haven't played enough scenes to gain the XP to buy them (or the stuff that goes with them). In my case, I tend to seek out the scenes I know are going to bring changes of view or interesting new bits to think about over going out and doing meet-n-greet scenes because I know that four hour, five person meet-n-greet time could be better spent in deep conversation with someone who knows something my character needs to know, etc. So, though I never remember to claim it in journals (and obviously don't know how to write journals to the best effect anyway), the vast majority of my scenes are heavy in character development and many lean towards those Epiphanies Jess mentioned.

I voted yes, for the record. But with reservations.

[Samael]

Thanks everyone for their comments on this! It's all being weighed in, particularly in regard to the votes but all comments are being considered.

As a side note, I'm not adding my own comments into this, rebutting or voting because I want to see where the conversation goes. I might drop some clarifications in as to how things are currently done or the like, but I laid out my reasoning for considering the change in my initial post and I don't want to steer this conversation in any particular direction.

One thing I do want to point out though, just as a quick clarification regarding how Mage is currently handled on-site: raising Arete as it is currently handled on-site is essentially identical to how it is handled in the book. If you want to raise your Arete, you try to get a Seeking. That seeking, if successful, costs XP (which is of course the part that we're debating). I don't want there to be confusion over that one and thinking that it is different than the book.

Keep your comments coming if you have them and make sure to vote in the poll! Thanks guys!

[vesta]

I'm going to abstain for the moment as well. Beyond 'Yay, cheaper goodies', I don't really have a strong feeling one way or the other. I just haven't played, and advanced, far enough in the system to really have a strong opinion.

Saying that, though, I quite like the ideas of character development being the prime driver for advancement, and of total XP spent being used as a guide for when a character might be getting close to a Seeking. More of a guide, so that those characters who get rolled out for fewer, deeper scenes don't get penalised and those two are just shooting the breeze don't leap ahead too fast.

[jamie]

Alright I'm back.

Just for context: I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has played the game across mediums and as both an admin and a player. I believe that players who put a lot into the system are going to get a lot (i.e. XP) back and the cost of increasing Arete and Spheres is just the nature of the beast.

For the purposes this argument I'm ignoring analogies to other systems (rank in Werewolf or Disciplines in Vampire) because I really don't think comparing the three main "splat" systems does anyone any favors. If anyone wants a treatise on why Werewolf and Vampire are more costly from a survival standpoint I will write another post.

Arete is the dice pool a Mage draws upon to do the things a Mage does. I recognize that current level x 8 is steep. But this setting is generous with its XP allotment. If a character is active in the system, the ST will reward him/her with XP. This has been a constant across sites and individual admins.

In an ideal situation the XP justifying an increase in Arete and the conversation about the character's advancement would be somewhat aligned. I think we have that ideal situation. I haven't seen a lot of Seekings happen when the character wasn't ready.

Seekings already don't cost anything if you fail them under another ST Handbook ruling. If you fail you just take the XP you would have dumped into the Arete boost and use it to bolster your PC's stats so the next time they have a Seeking they're more likely to succeed. This may be by buying off Flaws or buying new Spheres or boosting their Willpower. Maybe buying up Attributes that are weak.

We already as a system have conversation with the ST (Samael, in this case) before a Seeking happens. He, as far as I'm aware, has to approve player-ST arrangements for anything that isn't an Awakening or an Arete 4+ Seeking. So someone might be going into an Arete 2 or 3 Seeking not being ready, necessarily, but the conversation has happened so that Sam is aware the PC is Seeking.

I recently have run a Seeking where the PC was not ready but Sam and the Avatar decided to test the PC anyway. It made for great RP and conversation about where to better spend the XP and potential future RP to change the PC's mindset and increase the chances of a future successful Seeking. But I don't feel as though a reduced cost to the Arete increase would have been beneficial.

If anything eliminating the XP cost will reduce the drive to RP efficiently, which is what Court is doing. Certain players don't have a ton of time to RP and when they do have the time they choose to do "meaty" scenes that will affect their character's worldview and increase the likelihood of their accepting a Seeking if the Avatar thrusts one upon them. That's awesome and ought to be encouraged.

If the concern is that it's difficult to gain XP as a player with minimal time - I would say continue to RP efficiently. Write mood posts or run one-shots and/or SLs. Devote time when it comes time to write XP journals to the Character Development section. Do something that shows the admin you're thinking about your PC's development even if you aren't online 24/7. It will generate XP to pay for Arete boosts.

Oh shit I'm getting dragged out again that's my 2 cents bye!

[Howl]

Regarding Arete, I was just referring to the initial creation caps. Sorry if that caused any confusion.

[mnemosyne]

In short - I think some objective measure before the subject is broached is perhaps best. WtA does not require XP to advance but there is that pesky renown to gather. If we want to make it less costly in terms of XP - well, I like Whit's suggestion. I have more thoughts but am typing from my stupid phone so will hopefully articulate them later.

[Joey]

Arete should be increasingly rare the higher up the mountain a character climbs toward enlightenment. It should be very difficult to do so. This is kind of like deciding to not keep score in the tee ball game equivalent of the Ascension War. That's just my gut reactions and I usually follow my gut (to the buffet line).

And all of our player characters? Are not special snowflakes any more than they are unique in relation to the next and should not be any more or less likely to do it because we think they can. It should take collaborative effort and activity that shows dedication to the game, the character, and the other players. If you enjoy roleplaying? I think that you will agree that effort will make it hard and fun.

An XP system objectively (to a point, as requests for XP are approved by our Admin) quantifies this advancement (and all advancement) based on in character activity. Activity already includes supplemental awards from forum posts and character development notes, as well as kudos from other players, along with the regular awards for actually playing the character in scenes that are or aren't storyteller run.

I think that it shouldn't be easy (or even possible) for a PC whose player hasn't brought the character out many times to be able to send in a journal once a month with a scene or two noted and eventually get a seeking.

It's not that I don't think our Admin isn't capable of wielding that magnifying glass and making that kind of decision when such a player comes to him asking for a seeking for his PC; I think he shouldn't have to. Not when there is already a system in place that has allowed multiple PCs to move toward a Seeking and get that increased flex in their Enlightenment muscle.

(Enlightenment Mussel is the name of my psychedelic Cold War era Beatles cover band.)

Is the Arete system extremely expensive? Yes. Maybe we should consider making it less expensive (closer to raising an Attribute) rather than making it completely subjective? In a way that still leads to it being exponentially (not mathematically speaking, but you get what I mean) harder to climb that Nietzschean mountain? I don't know; I kind of like where it's at now and I'm looking for alternatives to what I see as an option that completely rehauls a system I don't think is broken.

Finally, whichever way this ends up going, I completely trust Samael to be able to maintain the balance he has already established in the system. Yes, I realize that he's the one who brought up this question and if he wasn't willing to have to deal with the repercussions he wouldn't have, but whatever. I'm saying it anyway: I just also don't think he should have to be the hard ass that says, "No Seeking for you," and dealing with the very rare player on our wonderful site who may not be able to deal with that.

[FadedNoel]

My thoughts are probably a bit different from everyone else. I liked the setup that was there originally (you must have a certain number of spheres bought, a certain number of Magely skills bought in order to ask for a Seeking) if only because it provided a guide to when I should expect to even start thinking "Seeking".

That's because I have nfi what constitutes enough character development. I just did my first Seeking a few weeks ago, and I feel deeply uncomfortable going to anyone and saying "Yeah, I expect Arete now!" without having some guideline to follow. In other words, I don't really like the idea of Arete being a kind of nebulous, whatever goes kind of concept, because I will fill out all my Mages' spheres for a level first before thinking they're ready, and never get up the courage to ask, if a ST doesn't beat me across the head and push the issue. But I realize that concern is going to be rare among this crowd, hah.

As far as XP cost, I feel like the sphere level costs are fairly good at providing a check on the power of characters. You can't actually do anything with another Arete dot that you couldn't do before - it just gets easier. You have to actually buy the next level spheres to gain a bump in abilities, and that is pretty expensive too. If Sam wants a game where Mages increase in power more quickly, this is a way to get that done.

The only problems I can see are perhaps people getting upset because now Arete becomes a completely subjective thing. Perhaps a ST and a player could not be on the same page and it causes conflict. But, that was already the case, huh? Another thing might be that a player gets dejected trying to figure out a hard Seeking (because they're going to get harder) and this causes conflict. But ST conflict happens. Especially in a game that's already quite "anything goes" and open-ended as Mage. We'll have to trust each other to be fair.

I vote a yes. I have reservations about making it all subjective and such, but I can see I being good for roleplay. Storytellers would have more freedom to play with Seekings and Avatars, and I like that aspect.

[errin]

(04-21-2014, 10:30 AM)FadedNoel Wrote: My thoughts are probably a bit different from everyone else. I liked the setup that was there originally (you must have a certain number of spheres bought, a certain number of Magely skills bought in order to ask for a Seeking) if only because it provided a guide to when I should expect to even start thinking "Seeking".

I know that feel so much, Noel *fistbump* I've tried to play Mage off and on since 2010 but it wasn't until I started playing in this system that I finally started to understand it. The problem with those requirements is that they are actually limiting to some people's Paradigms. From what I've seen, Grace probably wouldn't have had difficulty with it, but what about Mages that only have an interest in 2-3 spheres? Some of the Spheres do not require other Spheres to do what the Mage wants them to do. If I had made Sid to be even a little bit more experienced in being a Mage she probably would've been happy with three Spheres tops forever, which wouldn't have left her any room to add those required Spheres. That's just one example.

The Mage game is incredibly interpretive, that's why a lot of people (myself most definitely included) have a hard time wrapping their heads around the mechanics. It is whatever players and storytellers and system admins make of it.

The system that was created by the joint efforts of both Howl and Sam is a lot more flexible than most online MtA games that are out there. This is good, because Mage-by-the-book is fucking hard, and it places a lot of ridiculous restrictions on Mages and their advancement. It would not hurt to be more flexible in areas, and I think how XP can be spent is definitely among the things that could stand to be more flexible. It also would not hurt to stay the same, but I for one would like to change things up a bit.

And what would it hurt to make it easier to advance magically? Personally, I am playing a very long game with Sid (if she doesn't die or become too psychologically traumatized to continue), so I'm cool with taking my time, and also I haven't been playing any of these games long enough to really care about rank limits, but I know a lot of you have been playing since Mage's inception twenty years ago, or at least around fifteen years. And because people are advancing into the Disciple level, it's now impossible for someone to start off with a higher-than-Arete-2 character. So more experienced players are getting relegated into the lower ranks when they would probably like to play a higher level character.

That said, last I checked we were around a 50/50 split for what the players want, so I would like to offer an alternative. Instead of making an Arete upgrade cost Arete x 8, make it x6. Then overall XP cost becomes:

Abilities: current x2
Attributes: current x4
Arete: current x6
Sphere: current x8 (or a discounted x7 for specialty Spheres)

Because like Noel pointed out, yes, an increase of Arete makes doing magic easier. The PC has a better understanding of magic so it should get easier then, but real power comes from higher level Spheres. Arete 3 with Life 2 is a Mage still dealing out level 2 effects, just (usually (hopefully, I mean my god these dice are still pretty shitty)) with fewer extensions for awesome.

[[PS: Noel, if you EVER have questions about anything, please please please, do not be afraid to ask those questions. Nobody here wants you to feel frustration or worry over any of your characters' advancement/progress.]]